Cory has already been duly paid and promoted for his work on Data Diaries. What wonderful opportunity are we denying him? You spin like the RIAA.

http://deepyoung.org exists primarily to propogate The Flavor of Incongruity born of The Overzealous Spirit in The Face of Unfathomable Phenomena. I'm sorry that you are denying Data Diaries a wonderful opportunity to be recontextualized in the service of this endeavor.

curt


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>Turbulence exists primarily to support artists. We commission works such as Data Diaries with funds from various foundations. Foundations require that they are credited for the work they support. The artists' success allows Turbulence to raise more money to commission more work. I'm sorry that you are denying Cory a wonderful opportunity.

Jo-Anne

Hello Jo-Anne,

I was wondering if you were referring to the lists recent and quite
informative discussions around Cory's work.

best - marc


> >Turbulence exists primarily to support artists. We commission works such
as Data Diaries with funds from various foundations. Foundations require
that they are credited for the work they support. The artists' success
allows Turbulence to raise more money to commission more work. I'm sorry
that you are denying Cory a wonderful opportunity.
>
> Jo-Anne
> + ti esrever dna ti pilf nwod gniht ym tup
> -> post: list@rhizome.org
> -> questions: info@rhizome.org
> -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> +
> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>
>

Kool…

I do get a bit involved really - but I have discovered much from the
discussion and gone back to look at Cory's work many times, thus
reevalutaing various ideas & assumptions that I might of had.

Best - marc




> Hi Marc,
>
> No, I was referring to Curt Cloniger's earlier post "Arcangel/Data
> Diaries." I think the discussion about Cory's work has been both
> interesting and informative. Art should provoke debate: it's what
> Turbulence hopes to solicit.
>
> Best,
> Jo-Anne
>
> marc.garrett wrote:
> > Hello Jo-Anne,
> >
> > I was wondering if you were referring to the lists recent and quite
> > informative discussions around Cory's work.
> >
> > best - marc
> >
> >
> >
> >>>Turbulence exists primarily to support artists. We commission works
such
> >>
> > as Data Diaries with funds from various foundations. Foundations require
> > that they are credited for the work they support. The artists' success
> > allows Turbulence to raise more money to commission more work. I'm
sorry
> > that you are denying Cory a wonderful opportunity.
> >
> >>Jo-Anne
> >>+ ti esrever dna ti pilf nwod gniht ym tup
> >>-> post: list@rhizome.org
> >>-> questions: info@rhizome.org
> >>-> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> >>-> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> >>+
> >>Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> >>Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>

i can't remember an artwork creating so much discussion and now this
linking controversy! my-oh-my.

hey curt,

feel free to deep link to anything on mteww.com ;-)

++

but this is a serious issue. I would very much like to hear Cory's
opinion (tho he is probably wise enough to keep his mouth shut).

MTAA has just completed a small commission for an institution that we
haven't released yet (or they haven't released yet, or someone hasn't
released yet… but that's another story…)

There was no discussion on attribution, copyrights or any of that
stuff. I slapped a creative commons license on it and if the
institution asks me to remove it I believe I'll refuse. But maybe I
won't. The fact of the matter is in the extremely small world of
non-profits commissioning this sort of work it's easy to be pegged as
'hard to work with' and never get another penny. 'Ya gots to go along
to get along'.

Working with Creative Time in the past, we've had to sign contracts
that stipulate credits, copyrights, usages and so on. In that case,
to be ethical (and technically legal), I couldn't encourage deep
linking. I prefer everything to be explained up front in a contract,
that way everyone knows where they stand.

Turbulence seems to be professionally run imo, they probably had a
contract with Cory and he knew what he was doing when he signed it
and what (if any) limitations he was putting on his work by signing
it.

At 14:25 +0000 2/24/03, marc.garrett wrote:
>Hello Jo-Anne,
>
>I was wondering if you were referring to the lists recent and quite
>informative discussions around Cory's work.
>
>best - marc
>
>
>> >Turbulence exists primarily to support artists. We commission works such
>as Data Diaries with funds from various foundations. Foundations require
>that they are credited for the work they support. The artists' success
>allows Turbulence to raise more money to commission more work. I'm sorry
>that you are denying Cory a wonderful opportunity.
>>

–
<twhid>
http://www.mteww.com
</twhid>

mmm - deep linking…

soundz like a porno flick…

marc


> i can't remember an artwork creating so much discussion and now this
> linking controversy! my-oh-my.
>
> hey curt,
>
> feel free to deep link to anything on mteww.com ;-)
>
> ++
>
> but this is a serious issue. I would very much like to hear Cory's
> opinion (tho he is probably wise enough to keep his mouth shut).
>
> MTAA has just completed a small commission for an institution that we
> haven't released yet (or they haven't released yet, or someone hasn't
> released yet… but that's another story…)
>
> There was no discussion on attribution, copyrights or any of that
> stuff. I slapped a creative commons license on it and if the
> institution asks me to remove it I believe I'll refuse. But maybe I
> won't. The fact of the matter is in the extremely small world of
> non-profits commissioning this sort of work it's easy to be pegged as
> 'hard to work with' and never get another penny. 'Ya gots to go along
> to get along'.
>
> Working with Creative Time in the past, we've had to sign contracts
> that stipulate credits, copyrights, usages and so on. In that case,
> to be ethical (and technically legal), I couldn't encourage deep
> linking. I prefer everything to be explained up front in a contract,
> that way everyone knows where they stand.
>
> Turbulence seems to be professionally run imo, they probably had a
> contract with Cory and he knew what he was doing when he signed it
> and what (if any) limitations he was putting on his work by signing
> it.
>
> At 14:25 +0000 2/24/03, marc.garrett wrote:
> >Hello Jo-Anne,
> >
> >I was wondering if you were referring to the lists recent and quite
> >informative discussions around Cory's work.
> >
> >best - marc
> >
> >
> >> >Turbulence exists primarily to support artists. We commission works
such
> >as Data Diaries with funds from various foundations. Foundations require
> >that they are credited for the work they support. The artists' success
> >allows Turbulence to raise more money to commission more work. I'm sorry
> >that you are denying Cory a wonderful opportunity.
> >>
>
> –
> <twhid>
> http://www.mteww.com
> </twhid>
> + ti esrever dna ti pilf nwod gniht ym tup
> -> post: list@rhizome.org
> -> questions: info@rhizome.org
> -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> +
> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>
>

Hi Jo,

I agree - it has to be fluid so to be free from being contained, what is so
great about this pleghera of imaginative output, is that it changes all the
time anway - each day…

marc


> I think it's great that you and others get so in involved, and it's
> wonderful to see how ideas evolve as a result of your willingness to be
> honest. Many of the questions/criticisms that come up about net art have
> been around for a long long time, including what is or isn't art. I
> struggle with this one almost every day, and I hope that no one ever
> claims a definitive answer: it would be the death of art as far as I'm
> concerned.
>
> Best,
> Jo
>
> marc.garrett wrote:
> > Kool…
> >
> > I do get a bit involved really - but I have discovered much from the
> > discussion and gone back to look at Cory's work many times, thus
> > reevalutaing various ideas & assumptions that I might of had.
> >
> > Best - marc
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>Hi Marc,
> >>
> >>No, I was referring to Curt Cloniger's earlier post "Arcangel/Data
> >>Diaries." I think the discussion about Cory's work has been both
> >>interesting and informative. Art should provoke debate: it's what
> >>Turbulence hopes to solicit.
> >>
> >>Best,
> >>Jo-Anne
> >>
> >>marc.garrett wrote:
> >>
> >>>Hello Jo-Anne,
> >>>
> >>>I was wondering if you were referring to the lists recent and quite
> >>>informative discussions around Cory's work.
> >>>
> >>>best - marc
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>Turbulence exists primarily to support artists. We commission works
> >>>>
> > such
> >
> >>>as Data Diaries with funds from various foundations. Foundations
require
> >>>that they are credited for the work they support. The artists' success
> >>>allows Turbulence to raise more money to commission more work. I'm
> >>
> > sorry
> >
> >>>that you are denying Cory a wonderful opportunity.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Jo-Anne
> >>>>+ ti esrever dna ti pilf nwod gniht ym tup
> >>>>-> post: list@rhizome.org
> >>>>-> questions: info@rhizome.org
> >>>>-> subscribe/unsubscribe:
http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> >>>>-> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> >>>>+
> >>>>Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> >>>>Membership Agreement available online at
http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>

The following excerpt is from an article I wrote a while back at informit.com (whose copyright control i am no doubt violating by reprinting it here):

____________________________________
Web Wilderness Adventure Tours

"Can you tell a green field from a cold steel rail,
A smile from a veil, do you think you can tell?"
-Pink Floyd


Once a year I go backpacking in the Appalachian Mountains of North Carolina, preferably in the Joyce Kilmer/ Slickrock Wilderness northeast of Robbinsville. That's where they filmed "Nell", "Last of the Mohicans", and parts of "The Fugitive". After five days and four nights of being explicitly at the mercy of God, the rest of my year in the city always goes better. You could look at the wilderness and say, "This is land wasted." But to say so would be to prove yourself blind.

"Wilderness is an anchor to windward. Knowing it is there, we can also know that we are still a rich nation, tending to our resources as we should – not a people in despair searching every last nook and cranny of our land for a board of lumber, a barrel of oil, a blade of grass, or a tank of water."
- Senator Clinton P. Anderson of New Mexico

Without these yearly wilderness excursions, my house in the city would gradually comes to seem less like a home and more like a cage. Don't get me wrong. I don't want to live in the wilderness. I want to live in the city. But without the wilderness, I wouldn't want to live anywhere much at all.

Is the web any different? If nothing on the web is wild, primal, roaring, torrential, startling, disorienting, or out of control, then what is the rest of the web really worth? Must every last pixel be watermarked? Must every site reinforce somebody's relative net worth? Even in the so-called web design "underground," many designers are still blatantly reinforcing the "brand" of their non-commercial sites. "Did you like my experimental web site? Excellent. Be sure to remember its catchy logo and clever tag line. Why not sign up now for my mailing list while you're at it? And on your way out, don't forget to check out my professional web design portfolio."

Despite what it may seem, I'm not anti-commercial. Me work web design day job too. Me bring home pelt, make wigwam cozy for Paleface Squaw and Little Brave. I'm just saying that somewhere on the web there should exist a corner, a space, a land where the streets have no names. Part of the fun of backpacking in wilderness areas (as opposed to national forest areas) is that the wilderness trails are poorly marked. This oversight is intentional. It's why you bring a compass and a map. It's part of why you go in the first place. It has to do with being out of control.
_______________________________________



Is Data Diaries truly punk? Is it actually not art (as alex galloway's accompanying statement claims)? Then I do the piece a service by deep linking straight to its heart ( http://www.turbulence.org/Works/arcangel/color/date.php?id=1 ), thus bypassing the extant obligatory signage which is actually tangential to the stated purposes of the piece itself, and re-contextualizing the piece in a more "natural" wild environment ( http://www.deepyoung.org/current/hardwired/ ).

I can afford to tag and release like this because I don't live in the zoo. Too bad Cory's keepers wouldn't let his piece come out to play.

Maybe next time. ( perhaps http://www.michelethursz.com/site/RAM/index.html )

as you wish,
Archive Registrar
Deep/Young Ethereal Archive
http://www.deepyoung.org



+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
t. wrote:
The fact of the matter is in the extremely small world of
non-profits commissioning this sort of work it's easy to be pegged as
'hard to work with' and never get another penny. 'Ya gots to go along
to get along'.

Working with Creative Time in the past, we've had to sign contracts
that stipulate credits, copyrights, usages and so on. In that case,
to be ethical (and technically legal), I couldn't encourage deep
linking. I prefer everything to be explained up front in a contract,
that way everyone knows where they stand.

Turbulence seems to be professionally run imo, they probably had a
contract with Cory and he knew what he was doing when he signed it
and what (if any) limitations he was putting on his work by signing
it.

> Is Data Diaries truly punk? Is it actually not art (as alex galloway's accompanying
> statement claims)? Then I do the piece a service by deep linking straight to its
> heart ( http://www.turbulence.org/Works/arcangel/color/date.php?id=1 ), thus
> bypassing the extant obligatory signage which is actually tangential to the stated
> purposes of the piece itself, and re-contextualizing the piece in a more "natural"
> wild environment ( http://www.deepyoung.org/current/hardwired/ ).
>
> I can afford to tag and release like this because I don't live in the zoo. Too bad
> Cory's keepers wouldn't let his piece come out to play.
>
> Maybe next time. ( perhaps http://www.michelethursz.com/site/RAM/index.html )
>
> as you wish,
> Archive Registrar
> Deep/Young Ethereal Archive
> http://www.deepyoung.org


I checked out http://www.deepyoung.org ; that's an interesting site.

if you deep link to mov content, they pay for the bandwidth, Curt. You *are* getting something
from them that costs *them* money. And they store the Data Diaries. How would you like to host
the 11 hours and umpteen megabytes of the Data Diaries in color and black and white? That costs
money. You may reply by saying 'they have their own server so the cost is lower to them than it
would be to me.' But part of the reason they went to the trouble and expense to have their own
server is precisely to be able to host mega megabyte projects like this without it costing them
an arm and a leg, at least concerning storage. they made it happen, did the multi-person work to
establish an online server.

so you're getting two things from turbulence that costs them money when you deep link to them:
bandwidth and storage.

therefore you owe them something. And what are they asking? That you link to
http://turbulence.org/Works/arcangel . Not to http://turbulence.org .

also, turb worked to put in the grant applications that allowed them to be able to fund the
project.

but you're a big boy and must be aware of these things already. maybe not. but i'd be surprised
if not.

also, Curt, when I visit http://www.deepyoung.org I note terms such as "Archive", "Permanent
Collection", and "Current Exhibits". "Wild" indeed. Which gives one the impression that part of
the reason you don't want to link to http://turbulence.org/Works/arcangel is because you would
prefer it to be seen as a presentation of your site, not turb. And this seems self-serving, as
opposed to having much to do with a desire to "re-contextualizing the piece in a more "natural"
wild environment."

You provide interesting context for the works you link to (which is important), and I enjoy many
of the works in http://www.deepyoung.org , partly because of the context you provide, but Curt,
your project is one in *critical media* (like Paris Connection), *NOT* curatorship. You don't
want to link to http://turbulence.org/Works/arcangel because it seems you would like people to
think your site *does* involve curation. But curation involves much more than what you do on
your site, Curt. You should understand that. Look at all the work turb has done to present the
Data Diaries. I've mentioned what they have done, above. You've done diddly squat of that sort
of work but would like me to view your site as a curation? It's critical media, Curt, not
curation. And if you viewed it that way, you wouldn't have the problem you have of not wanting
to acknowledge the real curation and production work.

ja

Hi Jim,

I'll just respond as I go:

j:
if you deep link to mov content, they pay for the bandwidth, Curt. You *are* getting something
from them that costs *them* money.

so you're getting two things from turbulence that costs them money when you deep link to them:
bandwidth and storage.

therefore you owe them something. And what are they asking? That you link to
http://turbulence.org/Works/arcangel . Not to http://turbulence.org .

c:
or that i remove the deep link altogether, which i've done. no bandwidth used now at all.

j:
also, Curt, when I visit http://www.deepyoung.org I note terms such as "Archive", "Permanent
Collection", and "Current Exhibits". "Wild" indeed. Which gives one the impression that part of
the reason you don't want to link to http://turbulence.org/Works/arcangel is because you would
prefer it to be seen as a presentation of your site, not turb. And this seems self-serving, as
opposed to having much to do with a desire to "re-contextualizing the piece in a more "natural"
wild environment."

You provide interesting context for the works you link to (which is important), and I enjoy many
of the works in http://www.deepyoung.org , partly because of the context you provide, but Curt,
your project is one in *critical media* (like Paris Connection), *NOT* curatorship. You don't
want to link to http://turbulence.org/Works/arcangel because it seems you would like people to
think your site *does* involve curation.

c:
critical media. yes, you get it (whereas jo-anne doesn't, although she does now, maybe?). but if I just come right out and say "this site is not a REAL gallery, it's about critical media," then i've contextualized the site as such, and in so doing, i've defeated the very purpose of the site (which is to cause people to make their own contextualizations). so the site has to read the way it does. hopefully this approach serves the project, and not me personally. my name is nowhere on the site (and several of my artworks and writings appear there uncredited.)

j:
It's critical media, Curt, not
curation. And if you viewed it that way, you wouldn't have the problem you have of not wanting
to acknowledge the real curation and production work.

c:
it's not that i'm trying to avoid crediting turbulence's curatorial efforts. it's that i'm trying to avoid extant contextualization in order to maintain user disorientation. in so doing, i'm often forced to deep link. I don't frame the sites and mask their URLs. A surfer could obviously see the piece resided at turbulence. Edit the URL back to its root, and there they are at turbulence. There's even a link right there on the page I point to that leads straight back to the page turbulence requested me to link.

so far, most artists featured at deep/young have been pleased to have their work presented in such a context. I venture to say that Cory would be pleased too. More of his work is featured elsewhere on the site, and he said he was pleased to have it featured there.

But the point of deep/young is not to violate copyright or force issues of ownership (a la 010101/luther blisset). So I removed the link.

We can still talk about it though, can't we? Or should I have just quietly said, "yes m'aam," and stepped and fetched it?