">comment/s:"

>To me this sounds too idyllic: many muslim leaders discourage learning
>unless its about the Koran.

There was some prominent US foreign diplomat (forgot name/title) who recently that the "fundamentalism" in the Middle East, particularly in Iraq, is manifested most poignantly in the meager number of English language books translated into the local languages.

The funny thing is, America has one of the worst records of translating foreign language texts into English –only about 300 per year.

So who are the fundamentalists? It's not just the Kansas public school curricula; it's something else; proportionally, how many Americans know the capital of Peru…? Now, proportionally, how many Europeans? Asians? And so on.

*********<<this presupposes that cultural values are completely reflected in the local educational establishments/their methodologies/curricula/emphases…is there a way this could not be the case, I wonder???>>
– – –
About the Wahabis, Sharia law, etc being supported by the British–same thing in India with the caste system relative to Hinduism? Yet I wonder why the West is more and more extending the benefit of the doubt about this matter (with the Raj and all) while the Arab world with Islamic law doesn't seem to get that privelege? Is it because one needs a strong figure in the public forum to form a public conviction (Gandhi?) in the world?

<<this could be subjective, as there's no real way to consider "Western public opinion" of these matters as a whole…these two could be the exact same phenomenon at work..>. ?
– yeah, things get flaky when it comes to analyzing 'public opinion' -it's not just a polling issue.

Or perhaps it is less psychological and more cultural of a phenomenon, namely, that the Judaic religions' history of certain preconceptions/prejudices of each other…? I mean, contrast it with Hinduism, where it is a relatively recent encounter with the West…Islam has a longer history in that way.. Maybe the modern, progressive world is more generous with the ideas of politically manipulated religious concepts acted on the people..has the idea always been there, though? Look at old Western texts, even religious ones, like the Bible with the Pharisees, Sadducees /et al; not only the acknowledgement, but analysis, even, of political vested interests as a fundamental problem of organized religion..

+++ +++ +++ and +++ +++ +++

Well, the original "comparative postwar hypothesis" (first post) for Iraq takes as given a perfect, bloodless non-war war. Hah.

Or does it? Japan ate two nukes. And then some!!
3? possible counters to that:
a. (extended postwar military presence/force/restructuring from lingering paranoia…that feeling does not seem to be here anymore even after 9.11.)
b. (Japan's allies were already down, Japan was already down, everyone was down already all over the world. Iraq has tens if not hundreds of volunteer allies from Jordan, Syria, etc…fight everyone, everywhere? America wants the dream-war; short, effective, and minimum casualty…I don't think her heart can take a slaughter for mere 'protection against terrorism (slaughter)' not to mention the quiet fear for possible oil-motives of those involved)
c. (if ridiculous-strength war motive isn't there (as was there against Japan in WWII), would the situation degenerate into another farce/catastrophe like the American foreign adventures in Vietnam, Korea, Laos, etc? The ridulous-strength motive isn't there)

<well, a+b+c seem to view it from the desire/motive stance in some way or another…guess that's the only key there>




Iraq used to be one of the most, if not the most, advanced nations in the Middle East. Regionally, it had strong democratic principles, progress in private sectors/technology/industry … would it be a crushed national spirit (strongarmed foreign intervention) that would feebly try to recapture that past 'state' ?

And so on. About that, too–I'm not saying that American values of material progress and capital-imperialism is the means for survival of any country. America is the exception, not the rule (as de Tocqueville and all them will explain each and every little advantage US had so that our "democracy" "containing" a "free market" ended up "succeeding") ..there are several convincing arguments (cf.Weeramantry) out there for the non-application of Western values beyond its sphere, particularly with the "third world." Different dynamics, culture, etc. For another time. Once had that essay on 2Moksha.com on the specific economic/ political differences (largely structural matters); doubt anybody read it; doubt if it was worth reading.

So anyway, nobody wants a Hussein's Iraq. Nor a Bush's.

Other available options?
1 - local coup (in the works in Saudi Arabia…cover blown now?) ?

2- let it kill itself (Yasir's idea) ?

3- siege-tactic diplomatic pressure (possible?productive?) ?




-Vijay


> "S Yasir Husain" <husain@cyber.net.pk> <list@rhizome.org> RE: RHIZOME_RAW: ;;.;::::;;;.:..,.,,,,,;.,,;.;;,;.,;:::::::::,.,.;,; ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 12:49:07 -0800
>Reply-To: "S Yasir Husain" <husain@cyber.net.pk>
>
>
>'laws within the koran' is a strange phrase.
>The laws that are applied are a distorted result of selective and
>politically convenient 'sharia 'laws, all islamic sounding facades for
>brutally 'military' regimes. This is a pretty general (common) sentiment
>anywhere.so if you start from here youll, see people robbed by
>'modernists (although 'educating' in spurts starts) , in competition
>with religious anticlcolonialist except the ones like the wahabbis in
>Sauia arabia which were supported by he british. Well they had to do
>last minute things before they left , too, like carve out israel.
>People, whose talking about them?
>
>To me this sounds too idyllic: many muslim leaders discourage learning
>unless its about the Koran. Maybe ina remote inaccessible valley where
>there five houses and only have one track or road but no money or desire
>to leave the beautiful peoplace popuplace. 'Secularism' has done its
>damage. The desires are all rotten. No people no exist. Desire is
>luxury. unLaWfuL. Unwanted unutilized punishing. Life is punishing,
>except for …
>
>And what a mess of highways is israel !
>
>
>Where are the ordinary folk in america ? Ever wonder. Carracing
>bluegrassly. Wasted ? [?]]]?]]]??]]]]?] ADL>disbandrupting
>terrorists ?
>
>States are sick concepts. [Divide] [and] [rule] ?us? <<<<<<?<<<<<<<.
>possible. >>>>>>?>>>>>> -
>
>[ a [ intercode ramble ] not directed to [but triggered by] DdGdt 's
>comment/s:
>
>
>
>
>—–Original Message—–
>From: owner-list@rhizome.org [mailto:owner-list@rhizome.org] On Behalf
>Of David Goldschmidt
>Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2003 3:20 PM
>To: Vijay Pattisapu; list@rhizome.org
>Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW:
>;;.;::::;;;.:..,.,,,,,;.,,;.;;,;.,;:::::::::,.,.;,;
>;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
>
>
>> What if the new regime in Iraq will be a positive economic-political
>> model
>for the rest of the Middle East like postwar Japan was for Asia?
>
>my guess is that it won't be like Japan … because I don't think the
>new leaders of Iraq will be as dedicated (as the Japanese) to educating
>the general populace. I hope I'm wrong. Egypt and Saudi Arabia seem to
>place a high value on Education but many muslim leaders discourage
>learning unless its about the Koran.
>
>
>>
>> Also, is the Middle East even polarized towards Iraq as the regional
>hegemon? Is it some other country, perhaps? Saudi Arabia?
>>
>
>no, because Iraq is a secular nation. whereas most others are governed
>by the laws within the Koran. some "experts" have said that one of the
>main reasons the arab community has been relatively quite about a regime
>change in Iraq is becasue Iraq is not a Muslim Government.
>
>david goldschmidt
>
>> I know, I'm painfully ignorant.
>>
>> -Vijay
>>
>>
>>
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