It's not the circumcision that's the problem >it's the absolute
suspense> [





—–Original Message—–
From: owner-list@rhizome.org [mailto:owner-list@rhizome.org] On Behalf
Of josh zeidner
Sent: Thursday, November 28, 2002 2:59 AM
To: Charlie NYC
Cc: list@rhizome.org
Subject: Re: FW: RHIZOME_RAW: Male Circumcision is Wrong


— Charlie NYC <charlienyc@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> i understand what you are saying, josh. but, no one
> said victorians
> created circumcision.

Something I find humorous is that a lot of feminist
thinking presents the Victorian age as the founder of
this highly oppressive legacy, but paradoxically, the
Victorian age characterizes itself as having *female
leadership*.

> we said it became popular
> non-religiously and
> with christians to stop masturbation and then touted
> as a health
> issue to justify it for future generations after the
> "masturbation is
> the root of all evil" thing went out of style.
>
> yes, the feminist thing is a stretch, a common
> strategy used by
> leftists to unite other groups under their power
> field. it is true
> though that a mother naturally does not want to cut
> her newborn and
> hear his screams. it is also true that the baby has
> no choice in the
> matter and in that is it technically "forced genital
> mutilation".
> whether or not it affects a woman's enjoyment of sex
> is up in the air
> as far as i am concerned. i would need a LARGE well
> spread survey.

Well the ends do not justify the means. If you
believe in this argument( 'circumcision is wrong' )
then it should hold its own so to speak without
needing various rhetorical contortions. This just
adds to the misinformation, creates more problems,
people die, babies cry, etc.


>
> the idea that it can cause social problems like rape
> and violence is
> probably bullshit used by anti-circumcision people
> to scare their
> opponents. i highly doubt this. instead i think our
> war-mentality in
> america is a separate problem. we have NO IDEA what
> happens in the
> psychology of a newborn though i will guess that the
> extreme pain as
> a very early sensation in the genitals HAS to have
> some effect and i
> will also guess it is a trauma of some sort. a baby,
> taken from his
> mother's arms to have one of the most sensitive
> areas of his body cut
> by a stranger, come on. you think this is a good
> idea?

Well I would honestly say no. Such an operation
should probably not be manditory. As was mentioned
this does have a religious precedence. Also
circumcision is practiced in cultures that have not
been infected with the 'judeo-christian
snake-in-the-grass' such as Australian Aboriginies.

>
> your comments on eastern enlightenment and india's
> no-sex-before-marriage culture was connected how?
> sexual politics?

You could put it this way: often times to justify a
position certain parties try to create an alternate
reality that they present as a better option to the
one we currently have. Mythologizing about
hypothetical asian cultures does not help anybody.
What it does is takes fragments of cultures that are
misunderstood and presents them as the whole, a
sociological frankenstein monster. This kind of
argument is VERY common today and is rooted in our
conceptions of race and cultural identity and so
forth.

>
> this is what i think. i think we had some major
> problems with sex
> because of illegitimate children and STDs running
> rampant through us
> at MANY points in our past so we evolved culturally
> to solve this
> problem by creating strict culture about monogamy
> and marriage to
> close the sexual network and protect us. now, we
> have 1) antibiotics,
> 2) condoms, and 3) abortion.

Do we( as in ALL of us ) consider these things as
options? At least one of these things, antibiotics,
is beginning to be seen by science as
counter-productive. Do we want to become dependent on
technologies rather than moral codes?

As you know the abortion issue is still largely
unresolved. Abortion has a long history of
persecution. Midwives were often associated with
witchcraft, etc. The problematic issue of abortion is
not a new one, and its not likely to go away anytime
soon.

> therefore, we do not
> need AS MUCH these
> fears of sex and extreme focus on monogamy as we
> once did. yes, our
> sexual fears helped us survive once by slowing
> horrible plagues like
> syphilis and by creating greater stability in child
> raising by
> strengthening he family structure and fatherhood.
> that is why these
> fears are here. we are the successful offspring of
> survivors of STD
> plagues; both physically and culturally we adapted.
> and, usually, the
> family structure has, over-all, increased our chance
> of surviving by
> the father protects the wife protects the child
> system. this is also
> physical and cultural as almost everything is. now,
> we have a choice.

> do we want to still be uncomfortable with our bodies
> and sex?

What does that mean? I really cannot interpret this
statement.

> i think
> for raising children, the father should be known and
> be a part of it.

You have drawn a picture of 'traditional culture'
and shown how we have obviated it due to current
technological development. How do you see these
'traditional cultures' as not involving the father in
child rearing? If anything absentee fathers are a
manifestation of recent cultural changes rather than
these reported vestiges of the past.

> but before we are ready to have children, why all
> this monogamy crap?
> whatever, that is my opinion.

Psychology has shown that the sexual act has a
profound effect on the psyche. So called 'mental
illnesses' seem to be utterly ubiquitous today( which
is yet another multi-billion dollar industry ). What
is the solution? Jerk off?( btw- in most 'asian'
cultures this is considered even to this day to be a
function of insanity ). The link between sexual
behaviour and a mental outlook has been shown
countless times by modern psychology.

>
> but this is off topic. the main thing about the male
> circumcision
> issue for me is the lack of choice on the part of
> the child.

Ok, but if you want an argument to be taken
seriously, you do not throw in everthing and anything
from your system of beliefs( as discussed above ).

> i am
> vegan and it is the same issue for me: a stronger
> force physically
> controlling the life of another. yes, we RAISE our
> children but we
> should OWN them.
>
> oh, and why not post this debate online:
> http://www.indybay.org/news/2002/11/1545248.php


be my guest…

-josh

>
> ~Charlie
>
> >———-
> > > From: josh zeidner <jjzeidner@yahoo.com>
> >> Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 08:07:41 -0800 (PST)
> >> To: doron golan <doron@computerfinearts.com>
> >> Cc: list@rhizome.org
> >> Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Male Circumcision is
> Wrong
> >>
> >> "Recently Mr. Dervin gave a teach-in for the
> Feminist
> >> Majority Leadership Alliance at San Francisco
> State
> >> University entitled, "Why Male Circumcision is a
> >> Feminist Issue," essentially focusing this
> teach-in on
> >> the numerous ways in which male circumcision
> affects
> >> women including, but not limited to:breaking of
> the
> >> mother-infant bond; overriding the new mother's
> basic
> > > instinct to protect her child from harm;
> disrupting
> >> breast-feeding; lessening overall sexual
> enjoyment of
> >> women; increasing the "female sexual
> dysfunctions" of
> >> vaginal dryness and pain during intercourse; as
> well
> >> as likely increasing rates of rape and domestic
> >> violence."
> >>
> >> This argument is pure fallacy( :) ).
> >>
> >> Whether or not male circumcision is right or not
> >> remains an issue, however:
> >>
> >> 1) Male circumcision is NOT a feminist issue.
> >> According to people of this character EVERTHING
> is a
> >> feminist issue. Circumcision is not the cause
> of
> >> domestic violence and rape. I am sick of people
> >> turning thier personal psychological problems
> into
> >> social programs, because unfortunately in places
> like
> >> the US, this has become accepted.
> >>
> >> 2) Circumcision has a long history, predating
> the
> >> Victorian era. Although this article is yet
> another
> >> fine example of commentary designed to villify
> the
> >> evil white male, circumcision as a practice is
> not at
> >> all limited to European culture. It is
> estimated
> >> that the majority of ancient Egyptians were
> >> circumcised, and this is likely the place where
> it was
> > > picked up by the western Judaeo-Christian-Islam
> >> tradition( it is also believed that Egyptians
> did not
> >> circumcise at birth, but rather at puberty ).
> >> Circumcision has been practiced since the
> beginnings
> >> of civilization.
> >>
> >> 3) The idea that sexual behaviour must be
> somehow
> >> 'liberated' has become practically inextricable
> from
> >> so called modern progressive political and
> >> philosophical movements( and these ideas can be
> traced
> >> to Freud and associates ). I see sentiments
> like the
> >> ones above as a good example of such thinking.
> What I
> >> find interesting AND CONTRADICTORY is:
> >>
> >> a) They see problems like AIDS and STD( the AIDS
> >> rate continues to rise, it is estimated that 1
> in 5
> >> people between 20-30 have HERPES) as a HEALTH
> problem
> >> rather than a social problem. I believe that
> this
> >> mental construction is likely to be supported by
> the
> >> wonderful american medical community for reasons
> that
>
=== message truncated ===


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