Hi vijay,
No saber-rattling (jg,2002), just sparring.

Okay. If it were 1935 today how many people would have believed someone
if they said, this country, part of the empire, in which the sun never
set, which stretches from the Khyber to Rangoon and from srinagar to
columbo, would be carved up into 7 and later 8 countries (when another
broke into two) where the order of the breakup would be based largely on
ethnicity 'nationhood'? This transfer of power to the new states would
be facilitated by the empire in a gesture of decolonization. That these
countries would then have to find their place in the world by
themselves: independence sovereignty. That it would be bloody because
the ones leaving, subjects of George VI, would leave suddenly and in a
political hurry facilitating festering wounds of manipulated
antagonisms, frustrating (now for 55 years) the desire of the people to
live in self-rule while improving their respective lots and selves, free
from the 'made' and uneasy restive restrictive barriers of privilege of
the british raj, class, ethnic-religious superiority, and
defensive-strained-desperate domestic hegemony of the mostly patriarchal
family-class ties (but containing solid matriarchal pockets,
intertwinings and backups)). That this brilliant modern adapted
machinery of the government in its rule, its ethos, and which allows
redress through law, would rot and crumble by itself. That in the
commons that was Hind, land of the Indus, the Ganges and Jumna and
Brahmaputra, land which bred such subtleties as Akbar's din e elahi - a
synthetic religion allah=brahma but at the same time:
Persian,turk-mongol-chinese, and regional in wherever the rule extended,
agra or bengal, the ethos of guru nanak, or kabir, or sachal sarmast or
bulleh shah, the freedom to be who you are, whether it was shankara or
Iqbal. Consider the amalgams :
" Many deities are themselves a result of amalgamation of two or more
deities. For instance we have Hari-hara who is an amalgam of Hari
(Krishan who is an incarnation of Vishnu) and Hara (Shiva). This
amalgamation of the two recognised principal deities Vishnu and Shiva
was undertaken to ease out the dualism in the Hindu religion due to the
existence of the two principal sects Vaishnavism (worshippers of Vishnu)
and Shaivism (worshippers of Shiva) who were frequently at loggerheads
with each other. There are innumerable other sects though. Another deity
who is also amalgam of Vishnu and Shiva is variously known as Sashta and
Ayyappa. He has a famous shrine devoted to him at Sabarimala in Kerala."
(quote off a site)

Ya. And this is the essence of tolerance, if you can dwell on it till
you get it, something hiding just behind everything. So all this means:
1: That the restriction on free movement of people from lahore to dehli,
Karachi to agra, Calcutta to chittagaong, shillong to Rangoon is a 55
year old sentence on x million people, and intolerable. There even was
restriction on mail going across at one point.
2: the only thing stopping a South Asian Union of countries is Kashmir.
India 'claims' its former hindu-ruler (of the majority-muslim state)
signed over the 'state' to India (accession deed). Pakistan 'claims' no
such document exists so the rule that muslim majority areas go to
Pakistan, applies in 1947. The UN says (in 1948) India must hold a
plebescite for the kashmiris to decide (self-determination of a people):
India or Pakistan.
Meanwhile the line of control, LoC, the working border, is 'monitored'
in the silver peaked dense vallied beautiful, harshly, Kashmir.
Political wheeling-dealing at the moment of decolonization, transfer of
power, independence from British Rule, 1947, ensured that for 55 years
it lay there beautifully unmoving still chained, by guns radars planes 3
wars and now nuclear warheads, thanks to the fact that they are now seen
as active weapons for deterrence by unequal, if reluctant enemies,
caught in a british military government framework that is not unlike a
rulers' club which splits and fights with itself expensively, while its
very ordinary poorfolk now more than a billion, a sixth of all human
souls, are told how they are being served, and who are hanging in there.
They are forgotten. The poverty on the streets the absolute dejection
(low point) of whatever one calls 'humanity' is surreal and part of
every drink of water and every stroll on every street. No one escapes.
Migration is just a change of venue, at what cost, is it measurable ?
good question I'd say (different topic altogether).

With kashmir you can do the following: India takes all, Pakistan takes
all, accept LoC as the india/pakistan Kashmir border and Independence,
as most likely simplified possibilities. Today the rhetoric is about
'elections in kashmir', after the moments of discussing 'terrorist
infiltration or indigenous uprising', rebels & 'separatists' and what to
do with them (see sikh khalistan, nagaland, assam and Kashmir as
examples), for about 30 years and thinking before that that Pakistan
Kashmir etc would fall into India over time anyway. That's been
Pakistan's struggle and reliance on the army, the present 'democratic
genuinely(!) wannabe' face of which is exactly musharraf's).

With current reduction in militarization of US, Russia incl with nuclear
warheads, the impetus for their non-proliferation (let alone
non-first-testing), the open files of nagasaki and Hiroshima, and the
environmental and moral horror of power-mediated/sculpted possible
futures, nuclear technology and expertise will be gladly supplied by
military companies to maintain 'deterrence'. So for some time no nuclear
war in this area is possible. I'm willing to say 25-30 years. So what
would hold things after that, which would also convince the clubbers
that some cooperation would be needed for any survival short of global
disappearance of human sanity, humanity? What would hold it together
would be something everyone agrees on short of disappearance. So the
conversation may linger, it may be hesitant but it will be sane. It will
also be supervised to ensure not just NPT, but also restriction of any
possible anarchic and uses or sale of the weapon.

Having come to this and counting on a rise in global wealth (with the
apparent robustness of the European political economy/regional bloc
model quite prominent, along with other regional groupings) and its
greedlike effects on others, we would see a South Asian Union of
countries. Here is the meme dusting itself after 60 years. One of the
scenarios debated before 1947, 'Partition' of British India, was a
federation of states (across all south asia) politically, but with a
30-year military transition from british forces to the states' forces,
to ensure 'responsible' security in the region. This scenario was buried
but not killed, by politics leading up to August 1947. They were not
'responsible' to the region.

As for the 'religious' extremities they will bloom only where the
government is deliberately looking the other way. This is the reality in
these countries, though hard to believe for many. Not letting this
happen is about good intelligence, a reasonable law and order and
dispute resolution setup (courts) and for a govt to sympathetically
think about its people it 'serves' and stands on. This can be part of
any framework, secular or religious or tribal. And the extremists,
eventually after trying, will only exist in the extremities trying to
erase themselves. Different story for 'national' extremeists. Their
numbers will reduce, the vapid 'national/state' rhetoric of a
JI,BJP,VHP,RSS or bengalis will become a sweet murmur while we watch
their disbelief at this reality. The ideas will remain but will be local
and without much currency at larger and watchful levels (someone called
Indians homo-heirarchus, Merton?). but this is the general current world
order. Ordinary folk don't care, as long as life gets better with
minimum political, religious, ethnic 'problems' (which are ignored, left
to cook and, of course, blatantly and defiantly, without a second
thought, manipulated, for political gain and survival (of bad ideas,
environment and culture, corruption included). Having ethnicities is not
a problem. Resolving the everyday differences is, on a practical
everyday life level, thnrough better ideas and their putting put to
practice. One will be surprised at how few other problems besides these
there are in south asia (like other third world countries and regions)

So to your question:

'How the hell is that ever gonna happen? That's like saying "The
solution to world problems is obvious, fellows: just remove all the
corruption, stop all the wars, and feed all the poor! Oh, yeah, and fire
all the nukes into space!"'

… i've replied to how its gonna happen (in rough-cut sketchy general
terms, no specifics). I'd just like to add that its not like saying
"just remove all the corruption, stop all the wars, and feed all the
poor! Oh, yeah, and fire all the nukes into space!"' because corruption
will actually never end, wars end, the poor fed and the nukes disappear.
All of these things are a matter of intensity of occurrence, relatively
less, or very common, or somewhat, at different times. But the general
trend, as I indicate, is good. Also, no nuclear war.

Thanks for making me write.
bye

—–Original Message—–
From: owner-list@rhizome.org [mailto:owner-list@rhizome.org] On Behalf
Of Vijay Pattisapu
Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 3:54 AM
To: list@rhizome.org
Subject: RHIZOME\_RAW: Re: Infinite Matrix… (a protest,)

Yasir: The solution is: reinstatement of free movement of people b/w
pakistan & india
(closed since 1947 ! 55 years !), a South Asian Union of countries, an
'independent' Kashmir, demilitarization of South Asia, and so flooding
the area
with a peaceful wave that sends the extremists in the region (look up:
bjp, vhp,
rss, and the 2 or 3 lashkars)far into the arabian sea, may as far as the
US base
there, until they learn to swim with others.

How the hell is that ever gonna happen? That's like saying "The solution
to world problems is obvious, fellows: just remove all the corruption,
stop all the wars, and feed all the poor! Oh, yeah, and fire all the
nukes into space!"

Brilliant political analysis, friend!

-Vijay
>Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 12:17:18 -0500
> list@rhizome.org yasir husain <husain@cyber.net.pk> RHIZOME\_RAW: Re:
Infinite Matrix… (a protest,)Reply-To: yasir husain
<husain@cyber.net.pk>
>
>> I am sorry I dont appreciate the karachi comment:
>the caption is:
>"A particularly evocative shot here. "Well, so much for Karachi." "
>
>I would consider the comment okay if its SF (ie science fiction, but
not if its san francisco either, btw gibson's virtual light is pretty
close to karachi, but really a fictional takeoff and crash from City of
Quartz by Mike Davis).
>
>but the 'properties' of the image show that the shot, the explosion is
not khi (karachi):
>
>http://nuketesting.enviroweb.org/hew/Usa/Tests/Bjdog5.jpg
>which comes from: Gallery of U.S. Nuclear Tests (1945-92) at:
>http://nuketesting.enviroweb.org/hew/Usa/Tests/
>
>that's true. a faulty and scary logic. the soldiers wearing dark
uniform, eh, not from around here. and besides we are not like them in
these matters. so why me or us ? maybe there's a blank in the infomap.
>
>i am sitting and typing this in khi. I believe their is no prospect of
a nuclear war in this part of the world. deterrence is successful. the
real problem now remains with the bjp who hijack public opinion and
indian policy in india.(india: big brother in the region, superman's
fantasies, yuck!) I am saying this sitting here in karachi
>The solution is: reinstatement of free movement of people b/w pakistan
& india (closed since 1947 ! 55 years !), a South Asian Union of
countries, an 'independent' Kashmir, demilitarization of South Asia, and
so flooding the area with a peaceful wave that sends the extremists in
the region (look up: bjp, vhp, rss, and the 2 or 3 lashkars)far into the
arabian sea, may as far as the US base there, until they learn to swim
with others.
>
>and of course now there are the oil pipelines coming in through
afghanistan and iran to india and to port to ship em away. so.
>
>vive la karachi! or vive la kolachi, the old sindhi saint woman buried
in makli, in whose begging-bowl of a city 12 million people live, live.
come visit, put please dont nuke em. sound: see if you can find: Sohrab
Faqir, Sindhi Music Ensemble. or have you heard Nusrat fateh ali's
tribute to Lal Shahbaz of Sehwan: Shahbaz Qalandar.
>
>Please forward to Bruce. thanks.
>+ KNORRRRRRR
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